IRC log 4/4/07
Session Start (Adempiere:#adempiere-team): Wed Apr 04 07:47:53 2007
[07:47] *** Initial topic: BDC meeting. Agenda: 1. What causes loss of contributors. 2. How do we foster healthy consulting businesses. 3. How to encourage more to contribute. 4. ...
[07:47] *** #adempiere-team: jsSolutions kontro Ramiro DeathMeat AFalcone
[07:47] *** #adempiere-team was created on Fri Mar 30 07:08:55 2007.
[07:49] *** vpj-cd has joined #adempiere-team.
[07:49] *** Ramiro has changed the topic on channel #adempiere-team to WEB GUI meeting.
[07:52] Ramiro: hi all
[07:52] Ramiro: is there an agenda?
[07:54] jsSolutions: hi ramiro
[07:54] jsSolutions: 1. identify risks with posterita approach
2. How to collaborate to extend it rapidly?
3. Is it worth the effort to prototype other architectures?
[07:55] vpj-cd: Hi
[07:55] *** Ramiro has changed the topic on channel #adempiere-team to WEB GUI meeting. Agenda 1. identify risks with posterita approach.
[07:56] vpj-cd: we can start?
[07:56] *** Ramiro has changed the topic on channel #adempiere-team to WEB GUI meeting. Agenda 1. identify risks with posterita approach 2. How to collaborate to extend it rapidly?.
[07:56] *** Ramiro has changed the topic on channel #adempiere-team to WEB GUI meeting. Agenda 1. identify risks with posterita approach 2. How to collaborate to extend it rapidly? 3. Is it worth the effort to prototype other architectures?.
[07:58] Ramiro: no Victor, it is 3 minutes before the scheduled timing
[07:58] Ramiro: i am kidding
[07:58] vpj-cd: haaa ok
[07:58] Ramiro: :)
[07:58] Ramiro: lets start
[07:58] Ramiro: it seems that there is not much interest in a web gui
[07:59] Ramiro: jsSolutions: are you chairing?
[08:00] jsSolutions: Ramiro, yes
[08:00] Ramiro: ok
[08:00] Ramiro: over to you....
[08:00] vpj-cd: yes is very importnat
[08:00] jsSolutions: i'd like to wait a couple minutes, there are some confirmed attendees not here
[08:00] Ramiro: only 6 people showed up
[08:00] vpj-cd: with web gui are will have all necesseary to adempiere
[08:02] * AFalcone is back (gone 01:23:13)
[08:02] *** Ramiro_ has joined #adempiere-team.
[08:03] Ramiro_: correction: only 7 people showed up
[08:03] Ramiro_: 2 Ramiro's .... :)
[08:03] jsSolutions: :-)
[08:04] AFalcone: Hi guys
[08:04] vpj-cd: is important that the ppl posteria is here
[08:04] vpj-cd: Ñ-(
[08:04] AFalcone: hmmm I see, 2 Ramiros's.. so, you are very interesting with the issue
[08:05] Ramiro_: :)
[08:06] *** vclark has joined #adempiere-team.
[08:06] jsSolutions: hi vince
[08:06] vclark: Hey Joel
[08:06] jsSolutions: we are waiting a couple minutes
[08:07] jsSolutions: hengsin and posterita are not here yet
[08:07] vclark: No worries. I have plenty of time.
[08:07] vclark: I'm in NY sitting in a training class.
[08:07] jsSolutions: :-D
[08:07] vclark: So I am multi-tasking.
[08:09] *** red1 has joined #adempiere-team.
[08:09] Ramiro_: giving or receiving training ?
[08:11] *** Ramiro has signed off IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
[08:11] red1: good evening from here to all
[08:11] jsSolutions: hello red1
[08:12] AFalcone: Hi red1
[08:12] *** fredtsang has joined #adempiere-team.
[08:12] fredtsang: hi all
[08:12] kontro: Hello red1. Where is here this time.
[08:12] jsSolutions: hi fred
[08:12] fredtsang: I was in an hour before
[08:12] fredtsang: I was looking at the GMT
[08:13] red1: just arrived home
[08:13] red1: dozed off in the commuter train...
[08:13] red1: her is 2300 hrs
[08:13] jsSolutions: well, I guess we can start
[08:13] vpj-cd: ok
[08:13] jsSolutions: hengsin asked for meeting
[08:13] jsSolutions: but is not here...
[08:13] red1: hmm
[08:14] jsSolutions: first point: identify risks with the posterita poc
[08:14] red1: i tot u asked for meeting?
[08:14] AFalcone: hi fred
[08:14] fredtsang: hi alejandro
[08:14] fredtsang: I will not have much time though
[08:14] fredtsang: because I got the time wrong
[08:14] vpj-cd: I only have some issues to use zk
[08:14] red1: anyway topics are good to go
[08:14] red1: pls do not repeat points as we can have this on record
[08:15] jsSolutions: posterita 'planted the flag'
[08:15] jsSolutions: with the rollout of the POC
[08:15] fredtsang: ok we have something online
[08:15] jsSolutions: it looks nice
[08:15] fredtsang: (Link: http://tamak.dyndns.org:8085/webui/)http://tamak.dyndns.org:8085/webui/
[08:15] fredtsang: it might not be on for long
[08:15] fredtsang: but you can try it out
[08:16] vpj-cd: frsit issue you gui is regular, if we need a web gui it have reallity expectacular Ñ-)
[08:16] jsSolutions: well, i think the attention has been on the framework
[08:16] jsSolutions: the look n feel can be anything
[08:16] jsSolutions: correct, fred?
[08:17] jsSolutions: it's ajax?
[08:17] fredtsang: Yes, we can alter the look and feel
[08:17] fredtsang: The main person behind it is not here
[08:17] fredtsang: but this is what I understand
[08:18] fredtsang: basically, in terms of coding
[08:18] vpj-cd: ok next pont zk use a technology that have not adoption
[08:18] fredtsang: it is nearly identical to the swing ui
[08:18] vpj-cd: is Xul
[08:18] fredtsang: it's zk
[08:18] fredtsang: but we code in java
[08:18] fredtsang: we don't use Xul at all
[08:18] vpj-cd: yes th ecode is java
[08:18] vpj-cd: but exist many framework in java
[08:19] vpj-cd: echo2, gwt, laszlo , zk etc
[08:19] kontro: jsf
[08:19] vpj-cd: yes jsf
[08:19] jsSolutions: well, there are lots of ideas, but we have zk
[08:19] jsSolutions: so i'd rather focus on risks with zk
[08:19] jsSolutions: later we will talk about whether to pursue others
[08:20] vpj-cd: I think the risk is no exist a enterpsise importnat that are back the zk
[08:20] vpj-cd: only commnunity
[08:20] jsSolutions: ha ha, like adempiere!
[08:20] vpj-cd: but I see not a workin important and plactical in zk
[08:20] vpj-cd: a pplication the size as adempiere
[08:20] vpj-cd: expert posteria
[08:21] vpj-cd: ?-)
[08:21] vpj-cd: :-)
[08:21] jsSolutions: risks with zk:
[08:21] jsSolutions: 1. uses xul
2. community backed
[08:21] vclark: Sorry guys, I stepped away for a moment. Let me catch up on the thread and then I'll jump in.
[08:22] kontro: Somebody is willing to do the work. Do we have any reason to force him stop - what ever tools he uses ?
[08:22] fredtsang: I can't really comment on the choice of technology
[08:22] fredtsang: the best guy to defend the use of zk would be Ashley
[08:22] fredtsang: but he studied
[08:22] fredtsang: echo 2
[08:22] fredtsang: gwt
[08:22] Ramiro_: fredtsang: is this ajax Fred?
[08:22] fredtsang: JSF
[08:22] fredtsang: yes it is
[08:22] fredtsang: and struts
[08:22] fredtsang: and he opted for zk
[08:22] Ramiro_: i am very very impressed
[08:22] red1: joel, u call these risks?
[08:22] fredtsang: simply because there is a fundamental
[08:23] fredtsang: process in zk
[08:23] red1: lets focus on risks :D
[08:23] DeathMeat: struts + tiles?
[08:23] fredtsang: that makes everything easy
[08:23] fredtsang: basically
[08:23] fredtsang: this is copy and paste
[08:23] fredtsang: of the swing ui
[08:23] fredtsang: dead easy
[08:23] red1: like the words - dead easy
[08:23] fredtsang: the major breakthrough is in a single class
[08:23] jsSolutions: is there a lot of gui code?
[08:23] Ramiro_: multitab web gui, wow!!!
[08:23] fredtsang: like i said
[08:23] red1: and that someone (ashley, posterita) has proven it!
[08:24] fredtsang: it's The adempiere code
[08:24] fredtsang: just renaming
[08:24] vpj-cd: ok Ramiro the risk is we have a techologic nobody use
[08:24] fredtsang: ComboBox by ZComboBox
[08:24] fredtsang: and keep everything the same
[08:24] fredtsang: well there are some other complexities
[08:24] fredtsang: but basically this is how this is done
[08:24] fredtsang: just copy paste
[08:24] fredtsang: and renaming
[08:24] fredtsang: with a touch of genius from Ashley
[08:24] Ramiro_: so we can get support from the zk team because they will be very much interested!!!
[08:24] vpj-cd: yes also in echo2 or gwt
[08:24] Ramiro_: i call that an opportunity
[08:24] vpj-cd: all have same componets
[08:25] kontro: Since there is no good middle layer interface any solution is only temporary - so best option is to take easiest road and it seems to be zk.
[08:25] fredtsang: yes but they lack
[08:25] fredtsang: the threading
[08:25] fredtsang: part
[08:25] fredtsang: and this is why zk was chosen
[08:25] fredtsang: don't ask me on this
[08:25] fredtsang: Ashley will explain that better
[08:25] red1: u saying that the threading part is problem with others besides zk?
[08:25] vpj-cd: I think the main desition in this subjent is what technology will are in future
[08:26] fredtsang: I think there can be many technologies
[08:26] red1: victor, how far future?
[08:26] red1: i think zk is nice for now
[08:26] red1: if it involves dead easy works
[08:26] Ramiro_: fredtsang: is this example complete, i mean is it a complete web ADempiere GUI?
[08:26] vpj-cd: the future in gwt , openlazslo , or seeams
[08:26] jsSolutions: future may be main decision, but not immediate topic :-)
[08:26] fredtsang: no it is not complete
[08:27] fredtsang: this is a work in progress
[08:27] jsSolutions: fred, has your team identified any risks?
[08:27] jsSolutions: to this approach
[08:27] Ramiro_: how much effort still needed for an alpha complete UI?
[08:27] fredtsang: There was risk
[08:27] kontro: One question how many of us is going to help ashley if he chooses zk and is there any more helping hands if he chooses some other framework ?
[08:27] fredtsang: but this POC reduces all risk
[08:27] fredtsang: we can save
[08:27] fredtsang: we can change the display
[08:27] fredtsang: we have callout working
[08:27] fredtsang: so we need to implement grid
[08:27] fredtsang: some search
[08:28] fredtsang: but I don't think right now there will be stumbling blocks
[08:28] red1: has anyone else able to learn to do this too besides Ashley?
[08:28] kontro: If all the work is going to be done by ashley then we can not interfere - I think.
[08:28] jsSolutions: ok, so for now risks:
[08:28] vclark: Can we discuss some of the "under the hood" stuff?
[08:28] jsSolutions: 1. uses xul
2. community backed
[08:28] jsSolutions: vince- sure if looking for risks
[08:29] Ramiro_: risk 1 is completely mitigated if we use java, right?
[08:29] vclark: yes, risks.
[08:29] fredtsang: yes
[08:29] fredtsang: we don't use xul
[08:29] red1: fred, are u able to learn this ZK easily yourself? Learning risks here
[08:29] fredtsang: I have someone on it
[08:29] fredtsang: who is learning it
[08:29] fredtsang: I don't have time :)
[08:29] fredtsang: we are guiding him
[08:29] vclark: What is the interface to the AD? The existing servlets, or has this been rewritten?
[08:30] Ramiro_: fredtsang: is ZK browser agnostic?
[08:30] fredtsang: yes i think it is. have to check on zk
[08:30] fredtsang: zk is very popular
[08:30] fredtsang: among community
[08:30] fredtsang: among top 5 projects
[08:30] fredtsang: together with Adempiere
[08:31] fredtsang: healthy community!
[08:31] red1: yes, thats what Ashley said
[08:31] red1: it caught Ash's attention to try it!
[08:31] *** Ramiro_ is now known as Ramiro.
[08:31] jsSolutions: fred, to vince's question: What is the interface to the AD?
[08:31] jsSolutions: is that the copy/paste?
[08:31] fredtsang: yes that's copy paste
[08:31] fredtsang: it should behave exactly the way
[08:31] fredtsang: Swing behaves
[08:32] fredtsang: because we copy and paste
[08:32] fredtsang: and rename
[08:32] fredtsang: :-)
[08:32] jsSolutions: sorry for non-techie question, why do you have to copy if its the same?
[08:32] jsSolutions: have to make some additions?
[08:33] Ramiro: so the only risk that i am seeing is that this is community based, not much of a risk if you ask me
[08:33] fredtsang: Must use a different ui component
[08:34] fredtsang: If adempiere was flexible
[08:34] fredtsang: we could have just use a different implementation
[08:34] fredtsang: but right now
[08:34] fredtsang: we don't intend to make it flexible
[08:34] fredtsang: just make it work!
[08:34] jsSolutions: ok, vince, more tech questions?
[08:34] vclark: I think this discussion needs two major topics to be addressed.
[08:34] Ramiro: as much as the swing ui works anyway
[08:34] vclark: 1) MVC framework
[08:34] vclark: 2) UI components
[08:35] vclark: Most of the discussion up to this point seems to be focused on what Ajax toolkit to use.
[08:35] vpj-cd: the componet should simila ad swing
[08:35] vclark: I want to know what we're putting under the hood!!
[08:35] kontro: Read the source man!
[08:35] kontro: :)
[08:36] DeathMeat: hehe
[08:36] fredtsang: yeah
[08:36] fredtsang: we can send the source code
[08:36] fredtsang: anytime
[08:36] DeathMeat: some things can't be expressed with words
[08:36] vclark: Which source, the Posterita source?
[08:36] kontro: I meant zk source...
[08:36] fredtsang: well the web ui part
[08:36] fredtsang: no the current posterita code is a different framework
[08:37] fredtsang: Guys I will really have to go, I have a dinner and I planned the meeting to be at 6pm
[08:37] fredtsang: can we reschedule that meeting ?
[08:37] jsSolutions: ok, main thing we need you for, is point two
[08:37] jsSolutions: how to collaborate
[08:37] DeathMeat: a dinner... mhh you make me hungry fred
[08:37] *** Donald has joined #adempiere-team.
[08:38] jsSolutions: are we close to being able to put the code up
[08:38] fredtsang: well we can send the code to contribution
[08:38] vclark: Hey Don.
[08:38] fredtsang: and those interested can just pick it up
[08:38] fredtsang: and contribute
[08:38] fredtsang: we have no problem
[08:38] jsSolutions: ok, good. have a nice dinner
[08:38] jsSolutions: we'll talk about the rest :-)
[08:39] fredtsang: Ashley will be joining the chat later on
[08:39] fredtsang: so any techie questions you can ask him
[08:39] red1: fred, if there are some core changes to ADempiere, do u think it affect this Web UI?
[08:39] kontro: fredtsang, Ask ashley if it would be possible to write some script that parses swing classes to zk classes so that he does not have to copy paste.
[08:40] kontro: Using sed for example.
[08:40] fredtsang: ok I will mention that to him
[08:40] red1: thanks fred
[08:40] fredtsang: thanks everyone
[08:40] jsSolutions: bye fred
[08:40] red1: bon apetite!
[08:40] jsSolutions: ok, point 2: how to collaborate
[08:40] Ramiro: if ashley can write a quick and dirty turoial in the wiki on how to generate the web ui from swing it will address point 2....
[08:40] kontro: Also ask him to check if javaassist could be used to manipulate classes at load time.
[08:41] Ramiro: turoial=tutorial
[08:41] jsSolutions: 1. they coontribute code
[08:41] jsSolutions: 2. write tutorial
[08:42] jsSolutions: 3. interested parties jump in
[08:42] jsSolutions: ?
[08:43] jsSolutions: going, going....
[08:43] kontro: 4. Everybody live their lives happily ever after.
[08:43] jsSolutions: :-D
[08:44] Ramiro: this is really a good jumpstart into a web gui
[08:44] jsSolutions: ok, point 3- other prototypes
[08:44] Ramiro: i am impressed
[08:44] Ramiro: it is fast
[08:44] Donald: I think we should at least perform due diligence on what are the other possibilities.
[08:44] Ramiro: easy to generate from swing
[08:45] Ramiro: the guys from posterita did the due diligence
[08:45] kontro: It is important at this stage that existing code can be used.
[08:45] Donald: Do we have a list of requirements or parameters that a new UI technology needs to meet
[08:45] Ramiro: and even if it just a short term future solution i believe is worth it
[08:45] kontro: And it solves the database connection security issue.
[08:45] Ramiro: for a very reasonable effort
[08:46] Ramiro: we can have an alpha gui in less than a month or so
[08:46] *** vpj-cd has signed off IRC (Remote closed the connection).
[08:46] jsSolutions: so if someone feels strongly in another approach, they can proto like ashley did
[08:47] jsSolutions: otherwise, everyone concentrate on alpha gui?
[08:47] *** vpj-cd has joined #adempiere-team.
[08:47] jsSolutions: that gives room to victor to pursue
[08:48] vpj-cd: ok
[08:48] vpj-cd: I think we need
[08:49] vpj-cd: a good platafortm
[08:49] vpj-cd: no only a good frame work
[08:50] Ramiro: i agree joel
[08:50] jsSolutions: ok. 1. if someone feels strongly in another approach, they can do their own proto
2. otherwise, everyone concentrate on alpha gui using ajax/zk?
[08:51] Ramiro: this is the official direction but we can add more if any interested party prototypes ans demonstrates value
[08:51] Ramiro: 1. yes
[08:51] kontro: Survival of the fittest.
[08:51] Ramiro: 2. yes
[08:51] vclark: I am trying to understand how this UI is being generated. This is being done from the classes that generate the Swing client?
[08:52] kontro: Yes I think that mainly imports have to changed.
[08:53] *** kontro has left #adempiere-team.
[08:54] jsSolutions: vince, yes, the copy the swing code
[08:54] jsSolutions: it generates from the AD
[08:54] jsSolutions: in the same way
[08:54] jsSolutions: i think we can conclude the formal meeting
[08:54] vclark: So swing classes are copied, imports are changed, and the new imports are classes that translate from thick client components to HTML?
[08:55] jsSolutions: maybe we can schedule time with ashley to explain in detail the technical stuff
[08:55] vpj-cd: yes or ony generate a xml
[08:55] vpj-cd: zk use xml
[08:55] vpj-cd: and
[08:55] vpj-cd: openlazlo also
[08:55] vpj-cd: the unique use same form is echo2 and gwt
[08:56] vclark: Yes, I would like to understand what is happening under the hood.
[08:56] vpj-cd: zk and openlazslo are very similar
[08:56] red1: i agree joel that a proto is the best POC.. so now its proven, the million dollar question is answered
[08:57] vpj-cd: a use xul and other use another language
[08:57] jsSolutions: victor, can you explain what is 'a good platform'?
[08:57] vpj-cd: but I am agree
[08:57] vpj-cd: the best way to show the avantage
[08:57] vpj-cd: is
[08:57] vpj-cd: a proptotype
[08:57] red1: i second joel's call for concluding this discussion
[08:58] red1: i think a prototype has been requested all the time... its moot now to speculate in lieu of one. :)
[08:58] jsSolutions: ok, i'll post the summary
[08:59] red1: remember, we take the line of Extreme Programming... go read it up
[09:00] red1: my congrats to Posterita for making a fast study, working proto, and shown a live online demo, with download movie too!
[09:02] vpj-cd: yes
[09:02] vpj-cd: is exelent
[09:03] vpj-cd: I only no like zk :-)
[09:03] vpj-cd: as plataform
[09:03] vpj-cd: but I need build
[09:03] vpj-cd: a prototipe also
[09:03] vpj-cd: :-)
[09:04] vclark: Victor, what would be your preference? I've been working on a JSF prototype.
[09:04] vpj-cd: I prefered lazslo or gwt
[09:04] vpj-cd: I think this framework have more future
[09:05] vclark: Those are Ajax toolkits, correct?
[09:05] vclark: Or is there more to them.
[09:08] Donald: Is this a payed development of the gui or is everyone contributing
[09:10] Ramiro: it has been a posterita work until now
[09:10] Ramiro: not paid
[09:11] Donald: but moving forward how are we getting to the deliverable in one month?
[09:11] Ramiro: (Link: http://tamak.dyndns.org:8085/webui/)http://tamak.dyndns.org:8085/webui/
[09:11] Ramiro: you can visit the POC there
[09:11] Ramiro: going forward
[09:11] Ramiro: posterita will write a tutorial to be posted in the wiki
[09:12] Ramiro: everyone will collaborate based on the tutorial
[09:12] Ramiro: but this is just a copy and paste exercise
[09:12] Ramiro: no development is required
[09:14] vpj-cd: but as any project open source
[09:14] vpj-cd: exist some implemment
[09:14] vpj-cd: and la best is will are to future :-)
[09:14] vpj-cd: this case ano POC
[09:14] vpj-cd: ano now
[09:14] Ramiro: ???
[09:14] Ramiro: what do you mean Victor?
[09:15] Ramiro: i do not understand
[09:15] Ramiro: may be in spanish...
[09:15] vpj-cd: we need more prototype and see what is best
[09:16] vpj-cd: perdon ramiro
[09:17] vpj-cd: mi didea es que podemos presentar varios prototipos
[09:17] vpj-cd: y como en el open source
[09:17] vpj-cd: el mas aceptable preblalece
[09:17] Ramiro: de acuerdo
[09:17] vpj-cd: pero en principio
[09:17] Ramiro: did you visit the site Donald ?
[09:18] Donald: yes and it looks great!
[09:18] *** fredtsang_ has joined #adempiere-team.
[09:18] vpj-cd: el prototipo es exelente
[09:18] Donald: How is the Zoom functionality etc going to work in ajax?
[09:19] Ramiro: interesting question
[09:19] Ramiro: ashley from posterita should respond that
[09:19] Donald: The horizontal navigation through the app is important
[09:20] Ramiro: however the web gui is genrated using the same java code as the swing ui
[09:20] vpj-cd: el prototipo es exelente
[09:20] Ramiro: so i do not think is a problem
[09:20] Ramiro: that makes the effort very reasonable
[09:20] Donald: I really like what has been done
[09:21] Ramiro: it is just a copy and paste project
[09:21] Donald: I would like to see the ability to combine grid and form views
[09:21] Donald: like header on sales order with line items below
[09:21] Ramiro: yes, it will be done, fred mentioned it
[09:22] Donald: this was a performance issue in the swing
[09:22] Ramiro: i liked the multitab display
[09:22] Ramiro: very nice
[09:31] *** AshleyRamdass has joined #adempiere-team.
[09:32] AshleyRamdass: hi everybody
[09:32] AshleyRamdass: seems that the meeting is already over
[09:33] red1: well we re still here..
[09:33] red1: :D
[09:33] red1: testing out your online demo version
[09:33] red1: great stuff
[09:33] AshleyRamdass: thanks
[09:33] AshleyRamdass: sorry could not make it
[09:33] AshleyRamdass: running running running
[09:33] red1: its ok... your work preceded u
[09:33] AshleyRamdass: but still could not
[09:34] red1: take it easy.. u outdoing everyone!
[09:34] AshleyRamdass: thanks
[09:34] red1: u did what was most important.. so no urgency
[09:34] AshleyRamdass: ok
[09:34] AshleyRamdass: can I have the logs
[09:34] red1: i think Joel posted or is posting them.. in the wiki.. u sure to get it soon
[09:35] AshleyRamdass: thanks
[09:35] red1: basically some questions about how u did it and what are the risks to changes and other apps
[09:35] *** fredtsang has signed off IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
[09:35] red1: vince asked about under the hood
[09:35] red1: victor wanted to know if its a good choice versus GWT or some Laszo
[09:36] AshleyRamdass: well, it's pure RAD
[09:36] red1: i m concerned about how fast to teach another idiot like me how to do what u did
[09:36] AshleyRamdass: the real challenge was about the Env class
[09:37] AshleyRamdass: but now have greater challenge, that's why I donated the codes to posterita
[09:37] AshleyRamdass: allow someone to continue what I started
[09:37] *** vpj-cd has signed off IRC ().
[09:37] red1: thats the right and only thing to do
[09:38] AshleyRamdass: yes, I hope that an alpha gets ready very soon
[09:38] * red1 reading ZK site now...
[09:39] red1: its time to market ..
[09:39] red1: and make it good enough... need not be perfect
[09:39] red1: no need to look beyond 6 mths i say
[09:39] red1: Fred said it is dead easy
[09:39] AshleyRamdass: yes
[09:40] red1: short curve is an important killer
[09:40] red1: Kontro was asking if u can use JavaAssist to parse so that no copy/paste work is needed
[09:41] AshleyRamdass: Investigated on that, but did not go in depth
[09:41] red1: well.. bother kontro then..
[09:41] AshleyRamdass: have been reading all the JSR's he proposed
[09:41] AshleyRamdass: he's approach is very good
[09:42] AshleyRamdass: to make ADempiere a real Enterprise Software
[09:42] AshleyRamdass: scalable and flexible
[09:42] red1: well there is bound to be oohs and aahs
[09:43] red1: but this AHA! is great enuf
[09:43] red1: in bazaar not much theory.. alot of trading..
[09:43] red1: i seeing the Ajax demo.. very impressive howtos
[09:43] red1: u click on a feature snip... then u click on its source... highly associative learning here
[09:44] AshleyRamdass: yes, a great framework they have developed
[09:44] AshleyRamdass: the best part is that they are continuously growing
[09:44] AshleyRamdass: always in top 7 in sourceforge
[09:46] red1: the greatest thingy since i met Compiere 4 yrs ago
[09:46] red1: the demo userguide is so comprehensive and no brainer to go thru
[09:47] red1: u shuld write to them and tell them what u did with demo link
[09:47] red1: if u find some thing to improve them, u send it there... get yourself mentioned
[09:47] red1: u grow that way fast
[09:48] red1: you become guru ;)
[09:48] AshleyRamdass: yes will surely contribute also to ZK in way
[09:50] AshleyRamdass: still, could not get the logs
[09:50] AshleyRamdass: what has been said for question 3
[09:50] AshleyRamdass: will there be prototype on other architectures???
[09:51] red1: 3 meaning other technos?
[09:51] AshleyRamdass: yes
[09:51] AshleyRamdass: on my side can get that on Echo, JSF, ...
[09:52] red1: victor asked for other options.. but i think what is important is ready to go with no risks
[09:52] AshleyRamdass: in fact inspired from my novice experience on JSF to get the ZK working
[09:52] red1: can get more agile than that
[09:53] red1: the main thing is u get something to work, that says a lot.. u and others can build more from there
[09:53] red1: options often change
[09:53] AshleyRamdass: ok
[09:53] red1: unavoidable.. and we learn all the time
[09:53] red1: but as for now... we got a solid implemented proto
[09:54] red1: remember when Compiere first came out and with version 244 it was lousy
[09:54] red1: many parts broke down
[09:54] red1: but it hit top ten
[09:54] red1: publish early, update often
[09:54] AshleyRamdass: sorry but never knew 244
[09:54] red1: your best chance to get others to improve it when u publish fast
[09:54] AshleyRamdass: first version, 252d
[09:55] red1: haha.. just telling u some history u need not witness ;D
[09:55] red1: we use to cry
[09:55] AshleyRamdass: ok
[09:56] red1: ok take it easy.. dont burn out now
[09:56] red1: i m going to bed!
[09:56] AshleyRamdass: thanks a lot
[09:56] AshleyRamdass: good night
[09:56] *** red1 has signed off IRC ("bybye").
[09:56] Ramiro: AshleyRamdass: still there?
[09:57] AshleyRamdass: yes
[09:59] Ramiro: we were wondering AshleyRamdass
[09:59] Ramiro: if you could write a quick and dirty tutorial on how to generate the web ui using the java code in swing
[09:59] Ramiro: fred said it was literally a copy and paste effort
[10:00] AshleyRamdass: yes, managed to get that to the copy and paste
[10:00] AshleyRamdass: but initially that was not my idea
[10:00] AshleyRamdass: the way I wanted that to work
[10:00] AshleyRamdass: but in the end, why re-invent the wheel
[10:01] AshleyRamdass: The biggest challenge is the Env.getCtx() problem
[10:01] AshleyRamdass: about 1300 references
[10:02] Ramiro: we can revisit the decision later but for short term future this is perfect
[10:02] Ramiro: if you invest a bit of time in the tutorial we will get the help of many
[10:03] AshleyRamdass: yes, will try to get that done
[10:03] AshleyRamdass: I know it's difficult to understand how it is working
[10:03] Ramiro: great!
[10:03] AshleyRamdass: when you will look at the ZK site, you only see scripting
[10:03] AshleyRamdass: well, I'm getting in the back door
[10:03] Ramiro: i am not a technical person but i have a technical question
[10:04] Ramiro: probably is an idiotic question
[10:04] Ramiro: but i am sure you can respond it
[10:04] AshleyRamdass: go ahead
[10:04] Ramiro: ZK generates a web gui that uses ajax, right?
[10:04] AshleyRamdass: yes
[10:05] Ramiro: ok
[10:05] Ramiro: my understanding of ajax is that some parts of the application stay in the web server and some in the client where the browser runs, right?
[10:06] AshleyRamdass: nearly that, Ajax actually changes the html codes in the browser dynamically
[10:07] Ramiro: ok
[10:07] AshleyRamdass: That is without rebuilding the whole html structure
[10:07] AshleyRamdass: thus, the page is never refreshed and calls are executed without the user knowing (somehow)
[10:07] Ramiro: but who decides what part is executed locally and what parts are executed in the web server? is it done automatically by ZK?
[10:08] AshleyRamdass: nopes, that's one of the problem with ZK
[10:08] AshleyRamdass: it tries to mimic to much Desktop application
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[10:08] AshleyRamdass: but can also get the components to do operations locally or asynchronously
[10:09] Ramiro: ok, so a bit of fiddling will need to be done in order to fine tune the web gui, right?
[10:09] AshleyRamdass: yes
[10:09] Ramiro: ok
[10:10] Ramiro: is ZK generated code browser agnostic?
[10:10] AshleyRamdass: sorry, but not familiar with agnostic
[10:10] Ramiro: compatible with all browsers?
[10:10] AshleyRamdass: yes
[10:10] Ramiro: IE, FF, Opera?
[10:11] Ramiro: ok
[10:11] AshleyRamdass: it's one of their aims
[10:11] Ramiro: can i use the web gui in a PDA device as well?
[10:11] AshleyRamdass: well they are planning for mobile also
[10:12] Ramiro: so it is upto ZK to create the compatibility for those usages, right?
[10:12] AshleyRamdass: yes
[10:12] AshleyRamdass: but have not tested on PDA, but I think it should work fine
[10:12] Ramiro: so i believe we need to create a formal communication channel with the ZK guys....
[10:13] AshleyRamdass: yes, I think that for the best interest of both projects
[10:13] Ramiro: have you communicated to those guys at all?
[10:13] AshleyRamdass: not so far
[10:13] Ramiro: ok
[10:13] AshleyRamdass: but thinking to do so
[10:13] Ramiro: will discuss it in the council and generate a note to them
[10:14] AshleyRamdass: thanks
[10:14] Ramiro: congratulations AshleyRamdass
[10:14] Ramiro: you are now an Open Source Hero
[10:14] AshleyRamdass: thank you Ramiro
[10:14] Ramiro: :)
[10:14] AshleyRamdass: at least not for time being
[10:14] AshleyRamdass: preparing other things
[10:15] Ramiro: you have proven an important direction for ADempiere
[10:15] AshleyRamdass: yes, but I appreciate much Kontro effort
[10:15] AshleyRamdass: and believe in what he thinks
[10:15] AshleyRamdass: the technology stack he is proposing is great
[10:16] AshleyRamdass: will try to contribute in that direction in the future
[10:17] AshleyRamdass: that's my vision on how ADempiere should be in the future
[10:22] Ramiro: yes
[10:22] Ramiro: but i try to apply the salami technic
[10:23] Ramiro: i eat salami one slice at the time
[10:24] AshleyRamdass: yes of course
[10:24] AshleyRamdass: smooth transition
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[10:30] *** hengsin has joined #adempiere-team.
[10:31] hengsin: hi all
[10:33] Ramiro: hi hengsin
[10:33] hengsin: hi Ramiro, I guess the meeting is over ? was having line problem earlier
[10:34] Ramiro: yes it is but AshleyRamdass is still here and has responded assorted questions
[10:34] hengsin: do u have a log of the meetings that you can share with me ?
[10:35] Ramiro: let me check
[10:35] AshleyRamdass: Ramiro, I am also interested in having that
[10:37] Ramiro: got it
[10:37] Ramiro: emails please?
[10:37] hengsin: hengsin@gmail.com
[10:37] AshleyRamdass: agramdass@gmail.com
[10:40] Ramiro: gone
[10:40] hengsin: thanks, Ramiro.
[10:41] AshleyRamdass: thank you, Ramiro
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[10:58] hengsin: hi Ashley
[10:59] hengsin: hi AshleyRamdass, are u still there ?
[11:05] AshleyRamdass: yes Hengsin, I am here
[11:07] hengsin: I got a question on your preference on zk over echo2 , AFAIK, echo2 also have similar api with swing.
[11:07] AshleyRamdass: very good one
[11:07] AshleyRamdass: in fact wanted to do that on Echo2
[11:07] AshleyRamdass: but the scripting support in ZK is very important
[11:08] AshleyRamdass: will enable custom UI
[11:08] AshleyRamdass: and also community support on both technos
[11:09] hengsin: so, zk also provide swing like api which make porting easy ?
[11:09] AshleyRamdass: yes
[11:10] AshleyRamdass: though not cited directly on the site
[11:10] AshleyRamdass: you have all the API's at disposal
[11:10] hengsin: I'm very interested to help on this effort, so the question is when your can upload the code to svn ?
[11:11] AshleyRamdass: thanks a lot, I have donated the codes to posterita
[11:11] AshleyRamdass: and to what I know, that should be soon in the contribution folder
[11:12] AshleyRamdass: I have one question
[11:12] hengsin: cool, a document on the status of the port, issue face and remaining obstacle will help a lot.
[11:13] AshleyRamdass: yes will get that done shortly
[11:13] AshleyRamdass: concerning 2 pack, who is maintaining the codes???
[11:13] hengsin: carlos is the primary maintainer, I can help too.
[11:14] AshleyRamdass: Is there any document on what has been done and what need to be done???
[11:14] AshleyRamdass: have a guy that need to investigate on that on my side
[11:14] hengsin: search the outstanding bug report for 2 pack then you have a rough idea
[11:15] AshleyRamdass: ok, thanks a lot
[11:16] hengsin: afair, there are 2 main issue with 2pack - 1. the code is in need of some serious refactoring, 2. Export of initial data needed by module - some ID management issue.
[11:17] hengsin: for the zk port, I think it is also a good opportunity to clean up and refactor the swing client.
[11:17] AshleyRamdass: yes of course
[11:18] AshleyRamdass: have been working on that for some time now, extending the swing is difficult as it is currently
[11:18] hengsin: if you are writing the document for the zk port experience, please highlight that also - area where the swing code that needs clean up or refactoring to make the zk port easier. chances are that will also make porting to other future client easier.
[11:19] AshleyRamdass: ok
[11:20] hengsin: yes, the code now is a bit messy, but we can improve that as we go along. I have try a swt port before but stop because I think the current swing code need some massive restructuring.
[11:21] AshleyRamdass: yes you are right, functionalities have been added without actually cleaning up
[11:22] AshleyRamdass: thus making control flows messy
[11:24] hengsin: a port to Eclipse RCP and RAP platform will be very interesting, maybe my next pet project if I can find some time :)
[11:25] AshleyRamdass: yeah, that will be also very nice
[11:25] AshleyRamdass: but I think that web is getting more priority
[11:28] hengsin: the interesting part is with the eclipse rcp and rap platform, it is possible to build a web and desktop client using a single code base. of course, there is also the amazing osgi architecture.
[11:30] AshleyRamdass: had a look at osgi sometime back, really promising but could not go really in depth
[11:33] AshleyRamdass: nice to have chat with you Hengsin, time for me to leave
[11:33] hengsin: eclipse rcp for the web - (Link: http://www.eclipse.org/rap/)http://www.eclipse.org/rap/
[11:33] hengsin: ok, talk 2 u next time, looking forward for your zk code!
[11:34] AshleyRamdass: going to take a bath, then reading on the JSR's and then go to bed
[11:34] AshleyRamdass: yes, cooperation is the key to success
[11:34] AshleyRamdass: chat next time, bye
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[11:36] vpj-cd: AshleyRamdass youare of posteria?
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Session Close (#adempiere-team): Wed Apr 04 15:17:30 2007