PMC QA Meeting 20100303
Date: 2010-03-03
Time: 8AM GMT
Venue: irc #adempiere-team
Support Spreadsheet: Adempiere PMC QA
Chat times in GMT-5
(03:02:16) CarlosRuiz: interopen: are you there?
(03:02:25) interopen: Hi all, yes here
(03:02:46) interopen: We can start with QA
(03:02:48) CarlosRuiz: Hi Ivan
(03:02:54) CarlosRuiz: sure
(03:04:17) interopen: i have been reading release meeting and agree with the dates,etc...
(03:05:01) CarlosRuiz: Ivan - agenda for QA meeting?
(03:05:15) interopen: and about first release date 14 jun, we need to have some QA testing working on it
(03:05:19) CarlosRuiz: 1 - set up date/time for periodic meetings
(03:05:19) CarlosRuiz: 2 - review the list of tasks
(03:05:39) interopen: ok, we can start with that
(03:05:44) CarlosRuiz: on the QA topic and exploiting that hengsin is accompanying us - I have a question
(03:05:51) hengsin: hi Ivan
(03:06:05) interopen: about periodic meetings, for me is ok weekly at this same time
(03:06:11) interopen: hi hengsin
(03:06:23) CarlosRuiz: hengsin: I opened a forum post some time ago about some requirements for zkwebui to be tested on selenium
(03:06:33) CarlosRuiz: do you remember?
(03:06:43) trifon: ok. no problem.
(03:06:45) hengsin: carlos, the new sahia looks better
(03:06:54) hengsin: I posted a link in the release google doc
(03:07:03) interopen: yes, i read that forum post also
(03:07:11) interopen: and we did some research...
(03:07:15) CarlosRuiz: https://sourceforge.net/projects/adempiere/forums/forum/610548/topic/3360128?message=7551473
(03:07:26) hengsin: and it make some of those requirements not necessary anymore
(03:07:31) interopen: and for now found out sahi looks like a good alternative
(03:08:09) interopen: yes, also have other advantages as browser independence and easy to integrate in ant
(03:08:28) hengsin: I guess the problem here is a resource and time constraint, I'm not sure I would have time to work on that
(03:08:44) interopen: for what i review is a quite old project, same age as selenium lead by an indian company
(03:09:21) CarlosRuiz: you could guide me where are the needed changes on zkwebui
(03:09:29) CarlosRuiz: and I'll try to implement them
(03:09:42) CarlosRuiz: but if sahi doesn't need that - we can check sahi instead
(03:09:52) hengsin: carlos, yes, that's my point here
(03:10:19) hengsin: it seems not needed with sahi so that would save us quite a bit of time here - we need that.
(03:10:23) interopen: for selenium is documented here http://docs.zkoss.org/wiki/How_to_Test_ZK_Application_with_Selenium
(03:10:57) CarlosRuiz: good
(03:11:10) hengsin: but the bottom line is we need people to develop the functional test ...
(03:11:11) viola [~viola@pd95b04f9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] entered the channel.
(03:11:35) CarlosRuiz: ok - let's check sahi - and if not enough we can try the zk/selenium
(03:11:54) CarlosRuiz: hengsin: but we need first to set up the infrastructure for the tests
(03:12:03) interopen: i am working on have documented a POC for both sahi and selenium with zk
(03:12:18) viola has left the channel.
(03:12:26) CarlosRuiz: Ivan - I agree also with weekly meeting this time - so let's go on with this periodic meeting
(03:13:00) interopen: ok
(03:13:01) hengsin: carlos, yes, will need an contribution for that too
(03:13:32) CarlosRuiz: and we have also the fitnesse infrastructure to set up some functional testings if we want
(03:13:34) hengsin: but for the start, people can develop on their local first
(03:13:42) interopen: 2- in the list of task we have to create a base infraestructure
(03:14:00) hengsin: what is a "base infrastructure" ?
(03:14:32) interopen: base documentation with POC and a CI testing server where we can load tests
(03:15:03) CarlosRuiz: sorry Ivan - I guess it will be more organized if we review the tasks document you prepared
(03:15:33) CarlosRuiz: I introduced disorder because I wanted to ask Heng Sin about selenium/zk
(03:15:33) CarlosRuiz: but let's go on with the tasks document, right?
(03:15:48) interopen: right
(03:16:35) interopen: That was important as develop functional test over ZK i think is the way to go
(03:17:00) interopen: and for sure we will need some support from Heng Sin
(03:17:17) trifon: interopen: you wrote that you have POC for test. can you share it?
(03:17:24) trifon: others can join and contribute.
(03:17:55) interopen: yes, we are working on finish document it, and would like to share it before next meeting
(03:18:26) CarlosRuiz: POC based on? sahi?
(03:18:39) interopen: we have them with Hudson-fitnesse, Hudson-junit, Hudson-selenium and working on sahi
(03:18:53) CarlosRuiz: gr8
(03:19:19) interopen: The first three we work on it 5 months ago, now review them
(03:19:32) interopen: and sahi just come new now as we find some problems with selenium
(03:20:20) hengsin: Ivan, you can contact me on email if you need help
(03:20:27) interopen: at the end of this QA group menu page we are going to add some doc this week http://www.adempiere.com/index.php/PMC:QA
(03:21:03) interopen: Thanks Heng Sin, sourceforge one or other?
(03:21:29) CarlosRuiz: or pmc maillist
(03:21:52) interopen: that would be better
(03:23:03) interopen: ok, if we review the task list created
(03:23:52) interopen: i plan to have some base documentation ready next week and ask for other contributions and people to join team in forums
(03:24:52) hengsin: Ivan, sourceforge one is fine too
(03:25:15) CarlosRuiz: Ivan, it seems you have a clear idea about this - I'm glad you're leading this effort
(03:25:36) CarlosRuiz: can you split the task #6 in two?
(03:26:15) CarlosRuiz: fitnesse apart - I checked http://www.testadempiere.com:8082 and it seems it's broken - so I need to review what happened
(03:26:25) interopen: thanks carlos, i try to move it as i think is important to have a well develop QA in Adempiere
(03:26:41) interopen: yes, sure, we can split it
(03:27:31) CarlosRuiz: ok - I did it
(03:27:36) interopen: but want to later research it together, as i find a lot of similarities in those tools
(03:28:02) CarlosRuiz: :-) ok added fitnesse to the research
(03:28:18) CarlosRuiz: I mean - an immediate task is to review why fitnesse stopped working on test site
(03:28:18) interopen: thanks, now i not have access to it, sometimes i have it block it :-(
(03:28:51) interopen: sure, that was my meaning
(03:29:15) interopen: i find fitnesse easy to understand and use, and flexible to integrate with hudson
(03:29:51) interopen: but not the easier tool to create new tests for the non-developer
(03:30:13) CarlosRuiz: yes - we can try to make it more user-friendly
(03:30:49) interopen: also in the task list i wan to add some research to load testing tools
(03:31:07) interopen: that can be usefull for Arch group
(03:31:11) hengsin: thats not critical now, we just need more test first :)
(03:31:26) CarlosRuiz: I developed the adempiere fixtures for fitnesse - so, if you have ideas to improve usability just let me know
(03:31:32) interopen: ok, then add it to the end...
(03:31:57) CarlosRuiz: which one I add it to the end?
(03:32:21) interopen: load testing
(03:32:32) interopen: performance testing
(03:32:41) CarlosRuiz: ok
(03:33:07) CarlosRuiz: added as #15
(03:33:14) CarlosRuiz: Research and document load and performance testing tools
(03:33:54) interopen: ok then move the #8 behind it
(03:36:06) interopen: better for now is try to setup a base CI testing server and implement on it the POC, once all research and document
(03:36:59) CarlosRuiz: do you have CI server? or we need to call community to contribute one?
(03:37:05) interopen: but go step by step, is a new topic and not much documentation in the wiki about QA
(03:37:51) interopen: we have one, but i think is better to one independent for Adempiere
(03:38:03) CarlosRuiz: AFAIR there is a hudson server set up by Metas (Germany) notifying us when trunk doesn't build
(03:38:09) interopen: we can contribute it also
(03:39:37) interopen: there are options, i think better when we call community for contributions, we can ask for it
(03:39:51) CarlosRuiz: sur
(03:39:53) CarlosRuiz: sure
(03:40:05) interopen: as i would like once a base documentation about QA is in the wiki, try to have people join QA group
(03:40:49) CarlosRuiz: how much time do you have following adempiere community?
(03:40:51) interopen: as we will need a lot of involvement from the community to create and review tests
(03:41:21) interopen: since it started
(03:41:38) interopen: but not got involve
(03:41:49) CarlosRuiz: so, maybe this advice is not necessary but I will say you anyways :-)
(03:42:11) CarlosRuiz: don't get disappointed if you don't get the answer you expect from community
(03:42:25) CarlosRuiz: I've learned here that we need big dosis of patience
(03:42:26) trifon: be prepared to get no answwer at all!
(03:42:36) CarlosRuiz: things happens really slowly some times
(03:42:41) interopen: i know it, thanks for the advice :-)
(03:43:02) interopen: i am prepared for it, but we need to try it at least
(03:43:06) trifon: if you want people to join, don't promise things which can't be contributed immediately.
(03:43:45) CarlosRuiz: sure, we need to try, and keep trying :-)
(03:44:16) interopen: yes, for sure now i have commit to try and i have it as a long term commitment
(03:44:24) interopen: to go step by step
(03:45:20) interopen: trifon: thanks for the advice, i have it in mind
(03:45:37) CarlosRuiz: yes - we advance better in little steps
(03:47:08) CarlosRuiz: Ivan - do you have clear how the fitnesse integration works? I mean, I can show you if you want / there are some sample test cases in the test site
(03:47:10) interopen: so for now i am sure this first steps i will need to contribute almost alone
(03:47:38) interopen: but any review, comments will be always welcome
(03:47:42) CarlosRuiz: not alone - you can count with me
(03:47:50) interopen: as i learn to contribute better on Adempiere
(03:48:03) interopen: sure Carlos, thanks
(03:48:08) CarlosRuiz: and QA is one of my main worries also
(03:48:32) interopen: about fitnesse yes, i know how it works, we have POC on it, but any question i will let you know
(03:49:11) interopen: i think is key for stable realeases, if not people keep using trunk as a base
(03:49:36) interopen: including us ;-) for now
(03:50:22) CarlosRuiz: specially QA is done currently just with the eyes of peer reviewers - that's hard to sustain
(03:50:34) CarlosRuiz: and many times bugs pass without notice
(03:51:02) interopen: yes, i find it hard to follow
(03:51:25) interopen: that is what task 12 is about
(03:51:53) CarlosRuiz: yes, my dream is having a "regression test" tool - to run and notify us about problems :-)
(03:52:05) interopen: i think if any new contribution comes with a test is much easier to review and understand, as with the test you can easily see the objective of the contribution
(03:52:32) CarlosRuiz: indeed test data teach about functionality
(03:52:42) CarlosRuiz: that's great from GardenWorld
(03:53:31) trifon: interopen: you are right, but if you look nocustomer is uporting developer to write tests :(
(03:53:39) trifon: supoprting.
(03:53:44) interopen: that should be the main goal of QA group to have a CI test server that notify us
(03:53:58) trifon: tests are something which all we need bo noone has resources to develop them.
(03:54:14) CarlosRuiz: trifon: that must be part of the development, like documentation
(03:54:16) interopen: that is my first goal, to document, setup a base, and get nondevelopers to write test...
(03:54:42) interopen: here, i separate code test, from functional test
(03:55:02) interopen: i think code test, mostly in junit should be done by developers as they contribute
(03:55:05) trifon: CarlosRuiz: sure, but this is good wish so far. no reall use in reallity.
(03:55:10) CarlosRuiz: but I know what you mean - the first injured is always QA when budget is short, and then documentation
(03:55:24) trifon: yes. exactly.
(03:55:38) interopen: and functional test by users
(03:55:52) interopen: code test should focus only on what the new code want to achieve
(03:56:09) interopen: functional test on what the user what to achieve
(03:56:35) CarlosRuiz: and with selenium or sahi we can have some UI tests
(03:56:43) interopen: yes, that is the idea
(03:56:54) interopen: for the users, even final users
(03:57:33) CarlosRuiz: ok - I think we can close the meeting - almost 4AM here :-)
(03:57:33) CarlosRuiz: is that ok?
(03:57:39) interopen: as code test all developers know how to develop them, there is only a need to setup a clear policy
(03:57:52) interopen: ok for me
(03:58:00) hengsin: Ivan, agree, we need to enforce that.
(03:58:06) interopen: so we have a meeting next week same time
(03:58:06) hengsin: bye carlos
(03:58:29) CarlosRuiz: thanks to all for attending
(03:58:30) interopen: yes, enforce it
(03:58:35) CarlosRuiz: and thanks again Ivan for leading this
(03:58:45) interopen: thanks carlos for the support
(03:58:52) interopen: i follow the task list
(03:59:24) CarlosRuiz: bye guys
(03:59:35) interopen: bye carlos, good night
(03:59:59) hengsin has left the channel ("Konversation terminated!").
