AFG Minutes 20-07-2007

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Meeting Summary

The first meeting of the Accounting Focus Group was held.

The group confirmed the role of the AFG's is to:

  • act as the champion and knowledge custodian for the Adempiere Accounting subject area
  • provide domain expertise on any Accounting issues raised by the community
  • consider how Accounting issues impact and relate to different jurisdictions
  • propose and document Accounting best practice
  • interface with the development team to facilitate the integration of work in to the ongoing development of the accounting facets of Adempiere.

The group agreed to adopt IFRS as our 'standard' for accounting but recognise that there will be local variations that need to be considered

A number of projects are proposed or underway:

  • review of all IFRS standards (IAS/IFRS etc) and see where adempiere is compliant or not
  • document the accounting rules for all transactions and compare with ifrs
  • document the gobs certification criteria
  • document accounting concepts and implementation examples such as multiple accounting schemas, reporting hierarchies etc
  • create a demo client to hold all of the accounting config examples and test data (perhaps as basis for testing)

Meeting Actions

[10:59] <Michael_Judd> ACTION: armenrz_ to document discussion on ave po / ave invoice in the wiki ;)

[11:15] <Michael_Judd> ACTION: Michael_Judd post the link for GOBS in the wiki .... COMPLETE

[12:09] <Michael_Judd> ACTION Michael_Judd to post a message in the forums re scheduling a time for the next meeting COMPLETE

IRC Log

[9:08] [freenode-connect VERSION]
[9:08] * AFG-LogBot (n=PircBot@87-194-66-227.bethere.co.uk) has joined #adempiere-team
[9:08] * Topic is 'AFG Meeting Agenda: <a href="http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/AFG_20070720_Agenda'">http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/AFG_20070720_Agenda'</a>
[9:08] * Set by Michael_Judd on Fri Jul 20 07:54:16 BST 2007
[9:31] * muthah (n=Muthah@213.147.65.24) has joined #adempiere-team
[9:46] * chrisc_at_ (n=chatzill@213.225.54.97) has joined #adempiere-team
[9:50] * muthah (n=Muthah@213.147.65.24) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[10:01] * fransth (n=fransth@125.161.131.244) has joined #adempiere-team
[10:02] * chrisc_at (n=chatzill@213.225.54.97) Quit (No route to host)
[10:02] <Michael_Judd> Hi all - I'm waiting just 5 more minutes to allow everyone to join ....
[10:05] * armenrz_ (n=IceChat7@202.152.243.184) has joined #adempiere-team
[10:06] <armenrz_> hi all
[10:07] <fransth> i just listening here....
[10:09] * muthah (n=Muthah@213.147.65.24) has joined #adempiere-team
[10:09] <muthah> seems like a full house
[10:09] <Michael_Judd> Hi All - welcome to the Accounting Focus Group irc ...
[10:10] <armenrz_> who else we should wait for ?
[10:10] <Michael_Judd> Thanks also for putting up with the time change - I wanted to make sure everyone could attend ... so we put the time back a little
[10:10] <Michael_Judd> I thought AlbertChen was going to join us -
[10:10] <muthah> Hmm said he would join
[10:10] <fransth> hehe :) where is that Dr. Accounting,
[10:11] <muthah> lets hope he does
[10:11] <fransth> his skype is not active
[10:11] <armenrz_> ok, I only got one hour from now
[10:11] <Michael_Judd> I have skye messaged him ........ to advise we are starting.....
[10:11] <muthah> can someone try to contact him
[10:11] <Michael_Judd> So lets start and hopefully people will join in as we go ...
[10:12] <muthah> i break the ice
[10:12] <Michael_Judd> I've posted the agenda on the wiki
[10:12] <Michael_Judd> and I'd like to work through that if it's acceptable to everyone ...
[10:12] <armenrz_> <a href="http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/Accounting_Kernel_Certification">http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/Accounting_Kernel_Certification</a>
[10:12] <Michael_Judd> But first a few admin issues ...
[10:13] <Michael_Judd> I'm recording the log today and this will be posted in to the wiki with the minutes
[10:13] <Michael_Judd> Also, when we resolve something to do and if someone volunteers to do it, I'd suggest we mark it with "ACTION:" so it is easy to pick out of the logs ...
[10:14] <Michael_Judd> Does that all sound ok ?
[10:14] <armenrz_> alrighty
[10:14] <chrisc_at_> ok
[10:14] <Michael_Judd> Would people like to introduce themselves? (I can go first) ....
[10:14] <fransth> +1 go
[10:14] <fransth> ok, that will be cool
[10:15] <fransth> me, Frans Thamura, Jakarta, Indonesia
[10:15] <muthah> OK
[10:15] <muthah> Me Moses Kariuki Nairobi Kenya
[10:16] <armenrz_> Armen Rizal, Jakarta, Indonesia
[10:16] <usm88> Usman Medan-Indonesia
[10:16] <armenrz_> the house is full of indo :-d
[10:16] <chrisc_at_> me Christian Cerny, austria, vienna
[10:16] <Michael_Judd> I'm Mike (Judd). I'm an accountant - first qualified in Australia where I am a CPA, and also in Europe where I am a FAIA (International Accountant)
[10:17] <Michael_Judd> ok - so can people also say what area they come from - its good to have diverse groups from a functional perspective too ;)
[10:17] <muthah> Geographical or Professional
[10:18] <fransth> i am industrial engineering background and java developer here, less in accounting, but did several implementation of ERP
[10:18] <Michael_Judd> I mean professional - is anyone else an accountant for instance ?
[10:18] <fransth> i am strong in sales distribution,
[10:18] <Michael_Judd> great .....
[10:18] <Michael_Judd> I think Chris - your IT / process etc ....
[10:19] <chrisc_at_> Basically I'm developer with strong business background ( paper industry)
[10:19] <armenrz_> I'm ADempiere implementor, worked with the acct kernel many times
[10:20] <Michael_Judd> Thanks everyone .... that's great. If there are no objections I'd like to add you all to the wiki as being part of the AFG
[10:20] <muthah> Iam software Developer from VB and .NET my work is mainly debugging POS systems written In VB
[10:21] <Michael_Judd> If I move down the agenda . the next item is the role of the AFG....
[10:21] <usm88> I'm new comer, my first time implementation in Steel manufacture industry, I lead a team consist of several programmer
[10:21] <Michael_Judd> I have proposed the following in the wiki ....
[10:21] <Michael_Judd> The AFG's role is to:
[10:21] <Michael_Judd> * act as the champion and knowledge custodian for the Adempiere Accounting subject area
[10:21] <Michael_Judd> * provide domain expertise on any Accounting issues raised by the community
[10:21] <Michael_Judd> * consider how Accounting issues impact and relate to different jurisdictions
[10:21] <Michael_Judd> * propose and document Accounting best practice
[10:21] <Michael_Judd> * interface with the development team to facilitate the integration of work in to the ongoing development of the accounting facets of Adempiere.
[10:21] <Michael_Judd> Would you like to discuss any of these points? Add/modify ?
[10:22] <Michael_Judd> Anyone ? Or are we happy with the scope of the AFG for the time being ?
[10:22] <armenrz_> ok move on
[10:22] <Michael_Judd> great ...
[10:23] <muthah> Good with Me
[10:23] <Michael_Judd> So I would like to have a quick look a the state of affairs of adempiere / accounting
[10:23] <fransth> can we start from the issude?
[10:23] <Michael_Judd> So far, we have very little documentation of the kernel
[10:23] <fransth> issue that we have in current accounting
[10:23] <Michael_Judd> there is some docuemntation in the Doc*.java files
[10:23] <Michael_Judd> There is some info in the compiere manual
[10:23] <fransth> i think albertchen work on it, and he is still in adempiere , can anyone invite him?
[10:24] <fransth> he gone :(
[10:24] <Michael_Judd> and there is some info in the wiki
[10:24] * AlbertChen (n=AlbertCh@59-114-216-166.dynamic.hinet.net) has joined #adempiere-team
[10:24] <AlbertChen> hi Michael_Judd
[10:24] <fransth> hehe :)
[10:24] <Michael_Judd> Hi AlbertChen - thank you for joining us ...
[10:24] <Michael_Judd> We were just saying how we were missing you ;)
[10:25] <Michael_Judd> Would you like to introduce yourself the to the group (we have all introduced ourselves )
[10:25] <muthah> welcome AlbertChen
[10:25] <AlbertChen> we use Compiere 251 from 4 years ago
[10:26] <Michael_Judd> and your profession is ?
[10:26] <AlbertChen> i have over 10 years in Controler position
[10:26] <Michael_Judd> Great - in Taiwan .....
[10:27] <Michael_Judd> And you have a PhD?
[10:27] <AlbertChen> aslo Have over 10 year programing experience
[10:27] <fransth> he is god father :)
[10:28] <muthah> the kind we need here in AFG
[10:28] <Michael_Judd> great ;)
[10:28] <AlbertChen> and over 49 YEARS OLD
[10:28] <Michael_Judd> as long AlbertChen isn't a GodFather God Father - like Al Pacino ;)
[10:28] <Michael_Judd> ok - so if we go back to the state of play ....
[10:29] <AlbertChen> i am Just a senior for everything only
[10:29] <Michael_Judd> So we need to have a lot more documentation - to ensure that we understand the accounting kernel and what it is trying to do ....
[10:29] <AlbertChen> have SAP user experience
[10:29] <AlbertChen> have Oracle ERP consultant experience
[10:29] <Michael_Judd> And we need to recommend how to fix problems in the accounting kernel ....
[10:29] <chrisc_at_> documentation is an important point - because it would be very important for certification of the accouting kernel in most countries (user and technical kernel doc)
[10:29] <Michael_Judd> For example - one of the issues I've been looking at recently is inventory.
[10:30] <fransth> i am glad if the report after this meeting become a gap matrix analysis, current and future...
[10:30] <Michael_Judd> IAS 2 documents the standard on inventory and one of the issues that I've found is that costing should be associated with a product group
[10:30] <Michael_Judd> At the moment, costing is something for an entire accounting schema
[10:30] <Michael_Judd> it cannot be varied by product group
[10:31] <Michael_Judd> So we could make a recommendation (if what we all agree) that the "costing" should be linked to accounting schema
[10:31] <armenrz_> u mean costing method or costing level ?
[10:31] <Michael_Judd> This raises the issue - when we discover something like this - how do we act on it - and I suggest we talk about that a little later on ...
[10:31] <Michael_Judd> costing method ....
[10:32] <Michael_Judd> i.e. standard costing, average invoice etc ...
[10:32] <muthah> whether Standard or Average Costing i think armenrz_
[10:32] <armenrz_> currently you can have costing method in product category
[10:32] <muthah> so I am good in these stuff
[10:32] <muthah> Iam going to accounting classes in the evening thinking of taking the ACCA Certification stream
[10:32] <Michael_Judd> Material policy ....
[10:33] <fransth> that is right, product category is the costing center :(
[10:33] <AlbertChen> for each product category own different cost area?
[10:33] <armenrz_> the most problem in ADempiere implementation is costing
[10:33] <armenrz_> but now you can have different costing method for different group
[10:33] <fransth> in oracle erp, the average stand in organization level not in cateogry level, that is my experience
[10:33] <Michael_Judd> the material policy is different from the costing .....
[10:33] <AlbertChen> in taiwan we add month-average method for taiwan goverment
[10:34] <Michael_Judd> the moving average method of costing is something that is accepted as a standard under ifrs
[10:34] <Michael_Judd> for large volume non-specifically identifiable products ...
[10:34] <armenrz_> mike, i have re-worked the average costing lately
[10:34] <armenrz_> it
[10:35] <armenrz_> 's on the trunl
[10:35] <fransth> here in indonesia we use average, standard is prohibited, is that right armen?
[10:35] <armenrz_> yes
[10:35] <Michael_Judd> so before we get in to costing - is it ok to say that the AFG work on IFRS .....
[10:35] <fransth> or FIFO costing..
[10:35] <fransth> i am not familiar with IFRS
[10:35] <usm88> issue in avg cost is when hv to voided invoice / material receipt
[10:35] <armenrz_> international standard
[10:36] <usm88> it can't recalcuate..
[10:36] <armenrz_> usman: pls wait, we will release it soon to trunk
[10:36] <AlbertChen> fransth, your country can't acccept standard cost ?
[10:36] <Michael_Judd> Which is adopted in over 80 countries according to ....<a href="http://www.iasplus.com/country/useias.htm">http://www.iasplus.com/country/useias.htm</a>
[10:36] <Michael_Judd> IFRS: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrs">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrs</a>
[10:37] <Michael_Judd> yes usman - that is one of the problems .....
[10:37] <armenrz_> standard is allowable for finish goods, correct me Usman
[10:37] <armenrz_> standard is allowable for finish goods, correct me Usman pls
[10:37] <armenrz_> standard is allowable for finish goods, correct me Usman pls
[10:38] <Michael_Judd> so to recap - if we work to IFRS as the standard and then look at country specific issues around that ....
[10:38] <Michael_Judd> For example - with costing - FIFO is allowed under IFRS but it is not generally accepted for tax purposes ...
[10:40] <usm88> armenrz_, for finish goods we mix avg and standard
[10:40] <Michael_Judd> So when we come across these detailed problems in accounting - how can we resolve them ???
[10:40] <AlbertChen> i thnik moving avg and stand cost is accepted for IFRS
[10:40] <Michael_Judd> as long as the standards are reviewed regualrly for each product group
[10:40] <Michael_Judd> and the industry is suitable .....
[10:41] <Michael_Judd> another example - ifrs allows the retail method for the retail industry ....
[10:41] <Michael_Judd> and other methods for agriculture - financial instruments
[10:41] <AlbertChen> yes, Michael_Judd .
[10:41] <fransth> AlbertChen, if we use the IFRS,
[10:42] <fransth> is that mean, you idea about new kernel is suitable your need? is that right
[10:42] <AlbertChen> method cand defien by product-category is nice idea
[10:42] <Michael_Judd> it is also required by IAS2
[10:43] <AlbertChen> like SAP's control area
[10:44] <AlbertChen> one accounting schema own serveral costing method is better than only one mehtod
[10:45] <Michael_Judd> so what would be good is if we can document all of the issues that we have at the moment - perhaps each of us could log these in to the wiki for discussion ...
[10:45] <armenrz_> ok, here are my issues:
[10:45] <Michael_Judd> perhaps the accounting schema should look a the product group for the costing - rather than define it at schema leve l...
[10:45] <muthah> Yes and from there we will have something to work on
[10:45] <Michael_Judd> please continue armenrz_
[10:46] <armenrz_> mike, the functionality is there
[10:46] <fransth> armen, what is your isseu?
[10:46] <armenrz_> my issue:
[10:46] <Michael_Judd> I think the product group only supports fifo and lifo at the moment ....
[10:47] <armenrz_> u mean material policy or costing method ?
[10:47] <AlbertChen> yes, Michael_Judd agree with down costing mehtod level to product-category
[10:48] <Michael_Judd> the material policy only has lifo and fifo - and the material policy is what you can associate with the product group ....
[10:48] <Michael_Judd> but costing happens at the accounting schema level ...
[10:48] <Michael_Judd> go ahead with issues - let us get a good list out of todays meeting ...
[10:49] <Michael_Judd> There are some issues alrady in the wiki ....
[10:49] <armenrz_> modify acct kernel so we can add transaction/postable document in acct schema,
[10:49] <Michael_Judd> * VAT/IntraStat - Hot
[10:49] <Michael_Judd> * Costing - Hot
[10:49] <Michael_Judd> * Reporting/Tracing Journals - Hot
[10:49] <Michael_Judd> when you say transaction/postable document - you mean a way to trace all sides of a specific accounting "consequence" ?
[10:50] <AlbertChen> i think another issue is Account Element mapping down level BaseDocType to targeDocType
[10:50] <Michael_Judd> like a traditional journal number - ie journal #100123 DR x Cr x
[10:50] <armenrz_> look at the Doc*. I mean at the moment, it's all hard-coded
[10:50] <usm88> hmm, armenrz_ does is use for new document ?
[10:50] <Michael_Judd> It would be good if you could document that issue Albert in the wiki ....
[10:50] <armenrz_> yes usman
[10:51] * AS (i=AS6@48.117.50.60.klj04-home.tm.net.my) has joined #adempiere-team
[10:51] <usm88> yup, it all hardcoded
[10:51] <fransth> a lot of hardcoded inside compiere/adempiere, like processctl :(
[10:51] * AS (i=AS6@48.117.50.60.klj04-home.tm.net.my) Quit ()
[10:52] <AlbertChen> i know what Doc* need so many hardcoded, cause use BaseDocType
[10:52] <armenrz_> for example, if i want to a new transaction document, i'll be able to introduce it in acct schema
[10:52] <Michael_Judd> It would be good to document what the business issue is in the wiki for these ...
[10:53] <usm88> such as material return...
[10:53] <Michael_Judd> so who would like to document the issue with Doc* ? and perhaps make some recommendations ?
[10:53] <AlbertChen> Material Return in kernel only use APC/ARC
[10:54] <fransth> what is APC/ARC?
[10:54] <AlbertChen> AccountPayable Credit
[10:54] * muthaah (n=Muthah@213.147.65.24) has joined #adempiere-team
[10:54] <fransth> oh :)
[10:54] <AlbertChen> AcccountReceivalbe Credit
[10:55] <armenrz_> second issue, I'm proposing to merge avg po and avg invoice method
[10:55] * muthah (n=Muthah@213.147.65.24) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[10:55] * muthaah is now known as muthah
[10:55] <fransth> avg po and avg invoice?
[10:56] <fransth> can tell me more? is that price purchase variance issue?
[10:56] <Michael_Judd> yes - the average po is not something that is recognised under ifrs ....
[10:56] <Michael_Judd> it is maintly ti work out the ipv for standard costing ....
[10:56] <Michael_Judd> I think that perhaps standard costing has got miced up with inventory costing ....
[10:56] <usm88> yup mix of avg po and invoice to counter shipment before match invoice issue
[10:56] <Michael_Judd> does that make sense ?
[10:57] <Michael_Judd> Perhaps an issue on ave po - is that sometimes you don't have a po at the time of material receipt .....
[10:58] <armenrz_> there has been discussion on that in trackers
[10:58] <armenrz_> I will document this issue in the wiki
[10:59] <Michael_Judd> thanks .... so we have our first .....
[10:59] <armenrz_> I'm sorry I have to leave now, nice to talk with u all
[10:59] <Michael_Judd> ACTION: armenrz_ to document discussion on ave po / ave invoice in the wiki ;)
[10:59] <Michael_Judd> Thanks for your input .....
[11:00] <armenrz_> I recommend Usman and Colin to be included
[11:00] <muthah> thanks for coming armenrz_
[11:00] <armenrz_> many thanks
[11:00] <usm88> c u armenrz_
[11:00] * armenrz_ (n=IceChat7@202.152.243.184) Quit ("Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm")
[11:00] <muthah> even Colin was invited by Michael_Judd
[11:00] <Michael_Judd> ok - so other issues ........
[11:01] <fransth> anyway, my silly question...
[11:01] <fransth> is this chat room dicsuss about the issue of the common accounitng or a task list to do?
[11:01] <Michael_Judd> Some of the peices I would like our group to undertake is a review of all of the IFRS standards and to see how the adempiere kernel supports them or doesn't ....
[11:02] <Michael_Judd> I think it is both - but today I was trying to get a list of issues and then if we had time we could discuss one or two ...
[11:02] <Michael_Judd> That way we could schedule issues to discuss each week / month
[11:02] <Michael_Judd> and the discuss these off line in the wiki or forums too ...
[11:02] <AlbertChen> hi Michael_Judd , our target is meet with Big 4 accounting Firm;s auto-resot machines ?
[11:02] <fransth> cool
[11:03] <fransth> will you share the meeting?
[11:03] <Michael_Judd> fransth? Me ? It's being recorded and will be posted to the wiki
[11:03] <AlbertChen> auto-resort system
[11:03] <AlbertChen> okay
[11:03] * AlbertChen (n=AlbertCh@59-114-216-166.dynamic.hinet.net) Quit ("Leaving")
[11:04] <fransth> for albert.. sorry
[11:04] <Michael_Judd> no problems! he's left !
[11:04] <Michael_Judd> Hopefully Albert will rejoin soon .....
[11:05] <fransth> hehe
[11:05] <Michael_Judd> So - other issues are:
[11:05] <Michael_Judd> The accounting engine certification ...
[11:05] <muthah> That his style
[11:05] <Michael_Judd> Shall we discuss <a href="http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/Accounting_Kernel_Certification">http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/Accounting_Kernel_Certification</a>
[11:06] <Michael_Judd> Chris ? Did you have a look at that ?
[11:06] <chrisc_at_> yes - that's not gone be easy ;-)
[11:06] <fransth> hehe +1
[11:06] <fransth> hacking kernel is hard work
[11:07] <fransth> we need to make sure that the problem and the recomemndation written well in one of the wiki or docs
[11:07] <chrisc_at_> one issue is the documentation
[11:07] <chrisc_at_> of the kernel and the user documentation
[11:07] <fransth> i think, after that i will discuss to the better auditor first
[11:07] <chrisc_at_> that's part ( no add on) in all the certifications
[11:07] <fransth> i dont know, if we post the issue, one by one, can solve the problem
[11:08] <chrisc_at_> has anybody seen jens ?
[11:08] <chrisc_at_> he answered my post regarding the certification in the forum
[11:08] <Michael_Judd> yes - I imagine that an implementation will only be acceptable if certain settings have been set ....
[11:08] <Michael_Judd> did you find out anything about moving the business logic out of the client - to enable testing ?
[11:09] <Michael_Judd> i.e. from the webservices guys from Berlin ...
[11:10] <Michael_Judd> is there any english documentation on the certification process / requirements ?
[11:10] * croo (n=crooney@89.19.67.188) has joined #adempiere-team
[11:10] <Michael_Judd> Hi colin - thanks for joining ....
[11:10] <chrisc_at_> yes - we are still thinking about that - we are going to discuss it public as soon as we have plan
[11:10] <chrisc_at_> yes - there is an english document on the GOBS
[11:11] <croo> sorry I missed the start ... my connection is very unstable recently so if I disappear sorry
[11:11] <Michael_Judd> I was thinking it would be good to have a certification / testing module (perhaps via 2pack) that would test your system setup to make sure it was ifrs compliant - we could add testes to it all the time as we increase the scope of the compliance test ...
[11:12] <Michael_Judd> where can i find that ? Is there a web link ?
[11:12] <Michael_Judd> croo: no problem ....
[11:12] <chrisc_at_> one second
[11:13] * nwessel (n=nwessel@194.95.62.18) has joined #adempiere-team
[11:13] <Michael_Judd> Croo: would you mind introducing yourself for the record? We have all done it - a brief discription about your focus, your profession etc ....
[11:13] <Michael_Judd> Hi nwessel: thanks for joining - would you also like to introduce yourself?
[11:14] <chrisc_at_> <a href="http://www.it-audit.de/assets/artikel/IT_AUDIT_GoBS_englisch.pdf">http://www.it-audit.de/assets/artikel/IT_AUDIT_GoBS_englisch.pdf</a>
[11:14] <nwessel> Hi Michael, I just dropped it for a second
[11:14] <chrisc_at_> this is an translation of the german GOBS
[11:14] <Michael_Judd> great - a good link for the wiki.....
[11:14] <nwessel> I leave soon
[11:15] <Michael_Judd> ACTION: Michael_Judd post the link for GOBS in the wiki ....
[11:15] <croo> ok I' Colin a application developer for 20 years... developed in the areas of general business, manufacturing, services. Based in Ireland now but worked in many European countries
[11:15] <Michael_Judd> croo: we were discussing <a href="http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/Accounting_Kernel_Certification">http://www.adempiere.com/wiki/index.php/Accounting_Kernel_Certification</a>
[11:16] <croo> no professional accounting background ,... but after writing them for so long picked up bits & pieces :)
[11:17] <Michael_Judd> great - thanks croo .....
[11:17] <Michael_Judd> croo - would you like to add an issues to the rather large issue log ?
[11:18] <fransth> Michael_Judd, from me, do you have a list that current adempiere is bad in accounting kernel,
[11:18] <Michael_Judd> would anyone like to comment on the proces proposed for kernel certification (other than it is very vauge at this point)
[11:18] <fransth> i got from albert, bad, but no one have list it
[11:18] <fransth> i just dont get the glue, between the certification (the future) and current
[11:18] <Michael_Judd> I don't think so fransth - but it would be good to post it in the wiki
[11:18] <fransth> for me, the current step -> the certified product, is a hard job
[11:19] <Michael_Judd> yes - I think we need to work towards certification - and that starts with understanding in detail what we have, what it does and what it doesn't do ....
[11:19] <Michael_Judd> then fixing the issues one by one
[11:20] <fransth> i wish i can help, i am strong in sales distribition rather than in accounting
[11:20] <fransth> but several issue arise, but i dont know how to solve it
[11:20] <fransth> i am a java hardcore also
[11:20] <Michael_Judd> in conjenction with creating a (complex) model/example of how to configure adempiere to meet ifrs ...
[11:20] <croo> well I never audited a software package so I coulcn't say but it looks ok to me ... integrated testing is a big step obviously ... I think Trifon & ? someone else whose name slips my mind at the moment have done some work on creating a Junit test setup ... is this what you mean by testing? A junit test suite?
[11:21] <Michael_Judd> if we work the group well - we should b able to specify the issues and then solve them from a functional view point - and specify them in enough detail for technical people to fix them ....
[11:21] <fransth> +1, i love it :)
[11:21] <Michael_Judd> I think that junit is part of the equation - but we need to be able to black box test the source and finalisation of documents and their accounting consequences ...
[11:22] <Michael_Judd> one of the issues is that the accounting consequences have rules that are evaluation in the client
[11:22] <Michael_Judd> therefore - you may have a good accounting kernel - but someone creates a modified client and connects to your server - and this would 'break' the certification
[11:23] <Michael_Judd> as a result, the proposal is to move the business logic out of the client to prevent that (so the kernel exists completely on the server side)
[11:23] <Michael_Judd> then we can control the business rules - we can identify the problem rules and fix them
[11:23] <Michael_Judd> we can then automate some black box testing of documents according to specific test scripts ...
[11:23] <croo> hmm ... I think in this case the accounting server is not client based? not 100% what happend when they press post now ... but certainly being open source it is possible for someone to customise be it client or server!
[11:24] <Michael_Judd> yes - but in an implementation - the server is at least controlled ....
[11:24] <fransth> i must move
[11:24] <fransth> will come after this
[11:24] <fransth> bye
[11:24] * fransth (n=fransth@125.161.131.244) has left #adempiere-team
[11:24] <Michael_Judd> thanks fransth ...
[11:24] <Michael_Judd> a rouge in the org could get a copy of a client and use it to conenct ....
[11:24] <croo> bye frans
[11:25] <chrisc_at_> The Software "Version" will definitly be any issue when it comes to certification
[11:25] <Michael_Judd> and they could modify the code to break compliance at hte moment. ...
[11:25] <croo> mike I think the accouting is server based now ... is it now?
[11:25] <croo> not
[11:25] <croo> we would still need a test wuite
[11:25] <croo> suite
[11:25] <Michael_Judd> the accounting server is in the server side - but it depends on rules created on the client side ...
[11:26] <Michael_Judd> i.e. the original document is posted directly from the client - then the accounting server runs and posts the accounting consequences ....
[11:26] <croo> by rules you mean when we customise the GL of a product for example?
[11:26] <Michael_Judd> yes ...... although this should be controlled by user/role permissions
[11:26] <croo> or create a charge?
[11:27] <croo> ok
[11:27] <Michael_Judd> Chris - yes the version is an issue - we may need to certify the engine at a certain version (from the svn)
[11:27] <croo> so what you think we need is something to test a configured implementation - is that it?
[11:27] <Michael_Judd> we could also certify a branch version ......
[11:28] <Michael_Judd> i.e. create a certified branch where the accounting kernel does not change ...
[11:28] <chrisc_at_> i think you are not allowed to change the branch at all
[11:28] <Michael_Judd> that is one of the reasons for the akuna branch at the moment - to try out new accounting rules with a view to meeting compliance .....
[11:29] <Michael_Judd> perhaps it depends on how it is packaged ..... certain files would be 'locked' from change but others could change ....
[11:29] <Michael_Judd> if it became a big issue, we could package the kernel separately ......
[11:30] <croo> ok so I agree that the first thing to do is to document what we do habve now ... but klokoing a bit ahead to certified branches etc ... is it reasonable to expect that one setup will be correct for all countries?
[11:30] <Michael_Judd> perhaps that separation of the kernel is something we have to work towards when it is all in the server side ?
[11:31] <croo> I know in the liks of UK & Ireland we are fairly relaxed on the accounting law... but in the likes of France & Germany they are very strict
[11:32] <Michael_Judd> probably not croo - but if we focus on the ifrs requirements then we should get to a point where one setup might be acceptabel to all countries - but people would need to see if that were happy to adopt the general rule or if they wanted to use another local variation for specific business benefits ...
[11:32] <Michael_Judd> i.e. use a non ifrs method for costing to get a tax advantage ....
[11:32] <Michael_Judd> or a vat advantage ...
[11:33] <croo> ok
[11:33] <Michael_Judd> for instance, VAT should be charged according to the line items but discounted for any payment terms ....
[11:33] <Michael_Judd> discount
[11:33] <Michael_Judd> this is common in europe - but does not apply to sales taxes ....
[11:33] <croo> yes
[11:34] <Michael_Judd> so I guess the aim is to create a common setup that can be used to comply in many countries (perhaps the 80 that are aligned or adopt ifrs)
[11:35] <Michael_Judd> but if people choose to use other costing rules etc, then that would be their choice ...
[11:35] <Michael_Judd> so the certification would need to include some configuration data too probably ...
[11:35] <Michael_Judd> or perhaps a switch that says "ifrs compliant options only"
[11:35] <croo> are costing rules part of the ifrs specification?
[11:36] <Michael_Judd> inventory valuation rules are in ias2 .....
[11:36] <Michael_Judd> then they are charged to cogs accroding to matching principle - revenue
[11:36] <Michael_Judd> ifrs does specify (and there are also discussion notes about) costing
[11:37] <Michael_Judd> It's partially summarised in the costing page - but I'm still working it through
[11:37] <croo> ok - well it would be a great benefit to be able to say we are compliant with something :)
[11:38] <Michael_Judd> I'm not sure the "IFRS compliant options" button would work as it might be missleading - for instance - certain costing methods can be applied according to industry, or even if the "going concern" basis is abandoned ...
[11:39] <Michael_Judd> We can document these exceptions and perhaps support them over time
[11:39] <Michael_Judd> for instance - don't use adempiere if you are in agriculture .... as an example ...
[11:40] <Michael_Judd> ok - so back to the agenda -
[11:40] <Michael_Judd> so here are some projects proposed under the AFG .....
[11:40] <chrisc_at_> well - i have to leave now
[11:40] <croo> ok
[11:41] <chrisc_at_> have a good weekend all
[11:41] <Michael_Judd> 1. review of all IFRS standards (IAS/IFRS etc)
[11:41] <Michael_Judd> see you chris - you too ....
[11:41] <croo> bye chrisc_at_
[11:41] <Michael_Judd> and see where adempiere is compliant or not
[11:41] <Michael_Judd> 2. document the accounting rules for all transactions and compare with ifrs
[11:42] <Michael_Judd> 3. document the gobs certification criteria
[11:43] <Michael_Judd> 4. document accounting concepts and implementation examples such as multiple accounting schemas, reporting heirarchies etc
[11:44] <Michael_Judd> 5. create a demo client to hold all of the accounting config examples and test data (perhaps as basis for testing)
[11:44] <Michael_Judd> atthe moment I'm doing 1. and I'm trying to add the others when I have time ....
[11:45] <Michael_Judd> it would be good to know if anyone would like to pick up a task ....
[11:47] <croo> well I assume this is a long term project? I can help with basic things like documenting current rules but right now I am (hopefully) only a few weeks from a "go live" so as you can imagine I am up to my neck in problems!
[11:47] <croo> but once it's done I should have a bit more time ...
[11:47] <Michael_Judd> yes - had a go live on Tuesday ;)
[11:47] <Michael_Judd> the documentation of the rules is very useful as it benchmarks us - it does depend on the chart fo accounts though ....
[11:48] <Michael_Judd> So perhaps we also need a common chart of accounts (well we have a proforma at the moment really)
[11:48] <Michael_Judd> I have some notes to download in to the coa page too .....
[11:48] <croo> well we could justbase it on the gardenworld example ... but if that is not appropriate???
[11:49] <Michael_Judd> the garden world example is very basic - we would need to have multiple entities in multiple countries to document multiple accounting schemas etc ....
[11:49] <Michael_Judd> the garden world is implemented such that orgs are divisions ....
[11:49] <croo> no I mean the COA that comes with it
[11:50] <Michael_Judd> yes - the coa is a starting point ... we will need to expand it and perhaps modify it a little ....
[11:50] <Michael_Judd> for example - some of the IPV stuff goes through COGS rather than impacting the inventory (asset)
[11:50] <croo> ok - well that's not something I could do
[11:51] <croo> ok ... I thought IPV did go through Cogs? but that's a discussion for another time :)
[11:51] <Michael_Judd> that would be great - the accounting rules / default accounts -> link to the standard (model) COA
[11:51] <Michael_Judd> re IPV yep ....
[11:52] <croo> well actuall only the accounts with document controlled are important really!
[11:52] <Michael_Judd> ACTION: croo is documenting the default accounts / model COA
[11:52] <croo> the rest are siply posted to with GL
[11:52] <Michael_Judd> yes - agreed
[11:53] <Michael_Judd> and the journals that the system creates - when and what they are based on ...
[11:53] <croo> hey I said "croo ok - well that's not something I could do " NOT :)
[11:53] <croo> ok well I am working on accounts at the moment ..
[11:53] <Michael_Judd> ok - sorry - take back the action then !
[11:54] <croo> so I can document which documents make which which postings in the default COA ... is taht what is required?
[11:54] <Michael_Judd> Now the tuesday golive happened - the next project is an accounting implementation which I will start the week after next ...
[11:54] <Michael_Judd> plus I'm helping to advise another implementation ....
[11:55] <Michael_Judd> yes - the default accounts - i.e. the accounts that are used when different documents are posted and where the number (amounts) come from ...
[11:55] <croo> well I think we can see this a long term project? it doesn't have to be done next week! right?
[11:56] <Michael_Judd> then we can assess if they are ifrs compliant. ...
[11:56] <Michael_Judd> no - all of this is long term at this point - I think that recommendatinos will flow out as we go ...
[11:56] <Michael_Judd> my perception is that very few people actually use accunting and that is because it is a complex part of a complex application
[11:57] <croo> really? I would have thought it was central!
[11:57] <Michael_Judd> most people come from an IT sort of background and the projects tend to be based on business process other than accounting
[11:57] <croo> interesting
[11:57] <Michael_Judd> its only my perception from people I have talked to - others may be doing lots more with it ....
[11:58] <croo> ok well it will be the accounting package in my current implementation - now I'm worried that it's not well tested :)
[11:58] <Michael_Judd> i.e. I don't think there are many people who use two or more orgs in a client that are actually in different countries based on the lack of responses to certain posts I have made ...
[11:59] <Michael_Judd> Well I guess the AFG is very timely then.
[11:59] <croo> ah yeah ok I agree there ... I think it's mostly small businesses at the momemt and they do not have large orgs ... although from questions in the forums I there are a few who are!
[11:59] <Michael_Judd> I would say that accounting works to a level - but there is some way for it to go to support multiple countries and multiple schemas ....
[12:00] <croo> I think until the imlpementation firms grow large enough it will be that way
[12:00] * muthah (n=Muthah@213.147.65.24) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[12:00] <Michael_Judd> yes agree with you there....
[12:00] <Michael_Judd> so we seem to be loosing people - shall we summarise and then schedule the next meeting ?
[12:01] <croo> ok
[12:01] <Michael_Judd> To summarise then:
[12:01] <Michael_Judd> We have agreed the role of the AFG to be:
[12:01] <Michael_Judd> The AFG's role is to:
[12:01] <Michael_Judd> * act as the champion and knowledge custodian for the Adempiere Accounting subject area
[12:01] <Michael_Judd> * provide domain expertise on any Accounting issues raised by the community
[12:01] <Michael_Judd> * consider how Accounting issues impact and relate to different jurisdictions
[12:01] <Michael_Judd> * propose and document Accounting best practice
[12:01] <Michael_Judd> * interface with the development team to facilitate the integration of work in to the ongoing development of the accounting facets of Adempiere.
[12:02] <Michael_Judd> We have agreed to adopt IFRS as our 'standard' for accounting but recognise that there will be local variations that need to be considered
[12:03] <Michael_Judd> We have documented some of the accounting issues and these will be topics to be discussed in the forums / wiki and future meetings ...
[12:03] <Michael_Judd> The proposal for the AFG was to meet monthly ....
[12:03] <croo> Is Mike the only accountant here?
[12:04] <Michael_Judd> Albert is a financial controller - he was here earlier ....
[12:04] <Michael_Judd> we have a good mix of people from different backgrounds ....
[12:04] <croo> ok - just curious.
[12:05] <croo> i have no idea of ifrs & ias and the likes ... I know what they are but that's as far as it goes :)
[12:05] <Michael_Judd> As I'm going through issues - I'm trying to also document what I'm basing my statements on - usually with references to IFRS paragraphs or other relevant materials ....
[12:05] <Michael_Judd> So people can read for themselves and I don't get sued ......
[12:06] <croo> ok ... well I have some accounting manuals that have them .. but well it's a profession in itself - as you know!
[12:06] <Michael_Judd> ok - so next meeting - shall we say two weeks time - that's some time to make some progress.......
[12:06] <Michael_Judd> and what about time? is the early morning ok or do you think it is better later ?
[12:06] <croo> ok with me
[12:07] <Michael_Judd> ok - then to wrap up today - I'll be posting the logs in the wiki and documenting any actions .....
[12:07] <croo> I think Joels point on including as many as possible by going for miday is probably a good one
[12:07] <Michael_Judd> and I'd invite everyone to start using the acounting pages and adding to them as required or discussing issues in the forums
[12:08] <croo> miday GMT that is
[12:08] <croo> ok
[12:08] <Michael_Judd> yes - ok - I saw the post. A number of the others have had to go as it is now late for them (on a friday night!)
[12:08] <Michael_Judd> so perhaps we need to look at changing the day and also where people are located who wish to contribute ...
[12:09] <Michael_Judd> I'll post sometihng in the forums on that ...
[12:09] <Michael_Judd> ACTION Michael_Judd to post a message in the forums re scheduling a time for the next meeting
[12:09] <croo> late on a friday night - ah yes
[12:09] <croo> :)
[12:09] <Michael_Judd> OK - well unless there is anything else - I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to the irc today
[12:10] <Michael_Judd> I think we have made a start and recognise that the accounting roadmap is goign to take some time to achieve ...
[12:10] <Michael_Judd> but we have made a start....
[12:10] <Michael_Judd> Shall we wrap up ?
[12:11] <Michael_Judd> or finish up ?
[12:11] <croo> just looking at the code now ... the client only has code for AcctViewer included
[12:11] <croo> so the accounting must all take place on the server
[12:11] <croo> ok we can warp up
[12:11] <croo> warp
[12:11] <croo> wrap
[12:12] <Michael_Judd> ok - then the time for the next meeting will be discussed in the forums and should be aroudn two weeks from today.
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[12:12] <croo> ok
[12:12] <Michael_Judd> Thanks again everyone - look forward to speaking to you all soon ...
[12:12] <croo> ok bye
[12:12] <Michael_Judd> bye all ...
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